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Socoder -> Off Topic -> Mark's Dilemma

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Posted : Sunday, 15 October 2017, 14:40
therevillsgames
Looks like Mark is having doubts in Monkey2, which is a shame as I was getting into it recently with coding Diddy2
Posted : Sunday, 15 October 2017, 14:40
Jayenkai
Just found those tweets myself. Poor Mark.
In many ways, I'd love to say "I'm still here!" but I don't think it'd help..

Feels like all the walls are crashing down.
GameDev isn't what it used to be.

-=-=-
''Load, Next List!''
Posted : Sunday, 15 October 2017, 14:52
Jayenkai
Mark's recent tweets







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Posted : Sunday, 15 October 2017, 15:03
Pakz
The patreon shows 400+/- dollars a month. That is not really motivating I imagine. I have not donated a lot either tbh since this was possible.
Posted : Sunday, 15 October 2017, 15:25
GfK
Monkey2's problem is that it doesn't have any flagship titles created with it. It doesn't get spoken about in gamedev circles.

I mentioned Blitzmax/casual games to other devs at Rezzed a couple of years back and was looked at like I'd got three feckin heads. If Thomas Was Alone or Fez or OlliOlli had been created with monkey then it would have caused a few ripples but as it stands I fear it's always going to be an "also ran".

But ultimately it just hasn't kept up with the times.
Posted : Sunday, 15 October 2017, 15:33
steve_ancell
The Monkey name itself also kills any conversation, other computery people always associate it with brainwashing of apes rather than a programming tool. I also fucking hate it when Linux admins contrast us bedroom coders against what they call real programmers, real programmers my arse!, programming is programming what ever way you fucking slice it.
Posted : Sunday, 15 October 2017, 15:42
therevillsgames
I've been waiting for MX2 to get more feature complete and stable... which I think it is nearly there for 2D, but I did find out that music streaming is "very high on the todo list" and considering MX2 initial commit on GitHub was back in March 2016 I was surprised it wasnt already in!

For the past couple of weeks I've been coding Diddy2 for Monkey2 and really love the MX2 language now so hopefully it'll continue... but if not I'll either jump ship to Unity (ugghhh) or go the C++ route with SDL2 / SFML myself.
Posted : Sunday, 15 October 2017, 15:57
Pakz
I am thinking that it might be wise for me not to program a real big something with it anymore. I will need to start looking around for something else more stabile and longer supported.

I was already keeping a look out at different things but now it has become more urgent. Agk? javascript? Unity? C++? Gamemaker? Libgdx?
Posted : Sunday, 15 October 2017, 16:38
therevillsgames
Guess it depends on what you want to do and how you want to do it.

With C++, its industry standard not going to go away... but for ease you would want to use a framework such as SDL2 (which Monkey2 uses) or SFML.

Gamemaker has been around awhile and have recently released GM2, the cost is pretty high and its very DnD development which I'm not keen on.

AGK has a basic looking syntax with no OO but you can use C++, seems to be a small team behind it.

Unity seems overkill for my games, but is the defacto gaming creation tool at the moment.
Posted : Sunday, 15 October 2017, 17:01
Pakz
Installing unity... Maybe it will be something I can get used to. 4gb download though.
Posted : Sunday, 15 October 2017, 17:58
GfK
You only really need Unity itself, Visual Studio, documentation and standard assets. Just for finding your feet I wouldn't bother with the rest.

I really like Unity now I've got used to it.
Posted : Sunday, 15 October 2017, 18:19
Pakz
I only selected the webgl as an extra. It does seem a little bit slow on my low end laptop but it seems to work allright. My main laptop has an ssd so that would speed it up a lot.

I just tried a second tutorial(the roguelike) It seemed to work allright. This might be something I could get used to.
Posted : Sunday, 15 October 2017, 23:22
9572AD
I feel badly for Mark, watching his little empire slowly wash away. But even though I've supported his ventures from B3D (whence I spent time scoffing at DarkBasic) through to Monkey, I got near zero use out of anything after B3D. Blitz+ -zero use, though honestly I had zero projects suited for it. BlitzMax - zero use because zero documentation. Wanted to use it, couldn't find a reference to jack nor shite. Monkey started off well with its basic commands documented, but soon enough piled on and changed about everything while the docs stayed static. A stupid little undocumented compiler glitch killed my use of it when I spent a year trying to figure out what I was doing wrong, deciding I couldn't be doing anything wrong, asking what was going wrong and being told that what I was suggesting was impossible, providing reproducible examples of what was going wrong that went ignored, before finally being told that it was a "known" compiler glitch that I needed to shut up and stop wasting people's time with. Basically, it was always like there was some "elite" group that knew all the commands by rote before they were even implemented and had all the changes memorized immediately as well, but never bothered to write any of it down and were very put out to be asked to explain any of it. Blitz+ down through Monkey and likely Monkey2. Also, I don't think any of them ever had proper 3D or sound beyond the most basic capabilities. So presently I'm fairly convinced that AGK2 (from the DarkBasic people!) is my best option...though I haven't tried coding anything in it yet.
(Yes, I'm aware AGK2 doesn't so much have proper 3D either, but 3D isn't so much a concern to me as it seems to be to, well, everyone)

-=-=-
All the raw, animal magnetism of a rutabaga.
Posted : Monday, 16 October 2017, 01:10
rskgames
It is a difficult time for small game devs and engine developers. Like in every other products where we buy the most popular brands from huge corporations, gamers are now buying only the most popular games that are heavily promoted by the platforms where they are released. Diversity in game engines are games are going extinct and now it is the time of clones of popular multiplayer games, lootboxes and paid mods.

About AGK2 3d:
AGK2 has been getting lot of updates lately and the following links shows its 3d capabilities right now.
https://www.appgamekit.com/documentation/Reference/3D.htm
https://www.appgamekit.com/documentation/Reference/3DParticles.htm
https://www.appgamekit.com/documentation/Reference/3DPhysics.htm

There is a plugin/DLC called GGLoader that can help load levels created in Game Guru inside AGK2 to compile and run in Browser or mobiles.

-=-=-

Posted : Monday, 16 October 2017, 01:13
Dabz
Well, I've just recently started playing with it, on and off, and yeah, I'm getting on with it a lot better then the original monkey, its a better setup all round.

But still, no decent marketing, none beginner friendly docs, nothing coming through, one man band'ing it, being open source, it all wraps up to a slippery slope, and he's hitting it.

Sometimes when I've been programming in it, and it hasnt been much, I've only worked out how stuff works because I've used the same setup in other languages... Which is great for me... But when someone in the IRC thingy in the IDE cannot figure out how to change the colour of text, and you have to show them the various ways, then there is an issue there.

Blitz's strength back in the day where was it was really beginner friendly (Where the only limit is your imagination), but you could still knock out some great stuff when you picked it up, unfortunately, that was Kansas, and monkey2 isnt there anymore.


BlitzMax - zero use because zero documentation



Basically, it was always like there was some "elite" group that knew all the commands by rote before they were even implemented and had all the changes memorized immediately as well, but never bothered to write any of it down and were very put out to be asked to explain any of it.


A lot of the time, especially when Blitzmax came out, I relied on the modules source code, then having to play out how some stuff worked using that, it was the only way on some occasions.

So yeah, seems to me Mark hasnt taken any lessons from the past onboard, and give himself more to learn on top.

Shame, because no matter how much you look, he's massively talented in what he does, but he doesnt seem to know how to wield his talent for the best, or even for the good of himself.

Dabz

-=-=-
Intel Core i5 6400 2.7GHz, NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1070 (8GB), 8Gig DDR4 RAM, 256GB SSD, 1TB HDD, Windows 10 64bit
Posted : Monday, 16 October 2017, 02:04
rockford
From my own perspective as an ex-very-active-user of Blitz3D and BlitzMax -

If Mark had kept the syntax pretty much the same across all his languages, maybe, just maybe, he would have gained more support for the newer languages. Launching new languages (so quickly) with completely new commandsets (that lacked many features of the older languages), with only limited (if any) documentation probably didn't help him much.

And him saying he perhaps should have ignored the mobile sector pretty much shows he no longer has his finger on the pulse.
Posted : Monday, 16 October 2017, 07:51
GfK
For me, Blitzmax was the product which could have given BRL a long and secure future. If you have a tendency to make a language, bin it, start over, wait a couple of years, bin it, start over, repeat ad nauseam, then your target market is going to become smaller and smaller with each cycle of that. It's no good just making a new language to sell almost exclusively to the same people who bought the last one. Perhaps it worked to some extent, but if Blitzmax had been used as the foundation for a product that was still going strong today, then it might have been a totally different story. But instead we had the oddities of getting it to graft with MinGW which was *always* a ballache, 3D modules that never appeared, or appeared but weren't complete, missing features (I'm thinking streaming audio) that should have been added but weren't, and issues that just never got fixed.

Then along came Monkey and getting that bugger to work with all the targets made the MinGW pantomime look like a walk in the park. I honestly didn't build for that many targets with it, but I did it with iOS and after doing it the once, it was not an experience I ever wished to repeat. I didn't like fannying about in XCode - it's just too damn complicated for my primate brain to comprehend and I never ,ever wanted to go near it. Let's be honest - Monkey is a pain in the arse.

I don't know if Monkey2 has addressed the ease-of-use issue, though according to form I would doubt it.
Posted : Monday, 16 October 2017, 07:54
Jayenkai
Sorry to say, but there’s no escaping the ballache of XCode!!
Fucking provisions and certificates and migraines and brain tumours....

-=-=-
''Load, Next List!''
Posted : Monday, 16 October 2017, 08:16
GfK
As much as it pains me, I'm not sure we can blame *everything* on XCode.

Fuck it. Yes we can. Bloody XCode.
Posted : Monday, 16 October 2017, 08:31
Dabz
I think they do it on purpose so when it all works and your app uploads fine, you get a sense of relief... That bit is a happy time!

Dabz

-=-=-
Intel Core i5 6400 2.7GHz, NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1070 (8GB), 8Gig DDR4 RAM, 256GB SSD, 1TB HDD, Windows 10 64bit
Posted : Monday, 16 October 2017, 08:40
Dabz

edit: Ok, this posting doesn’t make sense now. Mark deleted his own where he wrote that “oh god, here come the ‘experts'” where my answer is related to…


Just spied that on the monkey forum... And well, why put comments up and not expect people to discuss them when they are using your tools?

It's alright when the community is organising splash screen images, or even trying to push the documentation on, but for gods sake, dont bash them for giving a shit and suggesting stuff when he blatantly hasnt got a bloody clue himself and on top of admitted that he may pull the rug under his own project.

Very dickish that, and a horrible attitude really.

Dabz

-=-=-
Intel Core i5 6400 2.7GHz, NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1070 (8GB), 8Gig DDR4 RAM, 256GB SSD, 1TB HDD, Windows 10 64bit
Posted : Monday, 16 October 2017, 08:48
Jayenkai
The word "otherwise" has been stuck in my head, today.

"I hope Mark continues to make a lovely environment so that I can continue to make AGameAWeek games using the neat catalogue of tools he provides... ... otherwise...."

-=-=-
''Load, Next List!''
Posted : Monday, 16 October 2017, 10:27
GfK
Glad I chose not to put my faith in BRL any more.
Posted : Monday, 16 October 2017, 10:35
Dabz
I've just downloaded SDL2, and my next port of call will be moving code I had on MX2 over to that with C++... Keep me busy!

Dabz

-=-=-
Intel Core i5 6400 2.7GHz, NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1070 (8GB), 8Gig DDR4 RAM, 256GB SSD, 1TB HDD, Windows 10 64bit
Posted : Tuesday, 17 October 2017, 15:30
GfK
Was about to reply here but actually, fuck it. I'll go do it on the Monkey forum.

http://monkeycoder.co.nz/forums/topic/worried/page/2/#post-11156
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