Teaching To Code

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Socoder -> Off Topic -> Teaching To Code
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Sat, 11 May 2013, 03:30
spinal	I’ve been volunteered to teach a 12 year old girl how to code. Any ideas where to start? I started by reading the C64 manual, I doubt that would be much help. -=-=- Check out my excellent homepage!
Sat, 11 May 2013, 03:30
Jayenkai	PlayMyCode seems a gentle enough starting point, but that might be because I'm already a coder. No idea how scary it might appear to a complete newb! At least with PMC you needn't deal with files and things, and she can carry on learning/fiddling just by logging into the site. -=-=- ''Load, Next List!''
Sat, 11 May 2013, 05:12
steve_ancell	I would start with loading images onto the screen, kids like that kind of stuff, then move onto the "x = x + velocity" thing, then rectangular collisions, then show when it would be better to use pixel-perfect collisions etc...
Sat, 11 May 2013, 09:13
spinal	Anyone know of any pmc tutorials anywhere?
Sat, 11 May 2013, 09:26
Jayenkai	Computing with Greenie? Not very good at "The Basics" to be honest. -=-=- ''Load, Next List!''
Sat, 11 May 2013, 13:28
Cower	Try starting with something like LOVE, which uses Lua. It's a good, simple, BASIC-esque language that should let you build up to more advanced stuff as needed (Lua can do a lot of stuff, basically), and LOVE lets you do game stuff, so there's visual feedback of progress.
Sat, 11 May 2013, 14:20
Dabz	The biggest thing about this is not actually present her on how to "code" like me or you would get by with learning a new language, remove the heavy guff for now, you need to make it fun, keep it fun, fresh and above all, let her know that shes doing well, reward her with stars, get her to type programs out by hand that will amuse her when they are ran, keep a portfolio of her work in a flashy folder, give her a swishy "Kitty Hello" flash [or other] drive to store her work on.... She needs to enjoy it or otherwise, she'll just do what other kids do when they are actually good at something... Get bored, muck about and eventually not give a damn! Dabz -=-=- Intel Core i5 6400 2.7GHz, NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1070 (8GB), 8Gig DDR4 RAM, 256GB SSD, 1TB HDD, Windows 10 64bit
Sat, 11 May 2013, 18:12
Afr0	I second what Cower suggested, except with one warning: Lua isn't a good language for writing (MMO)-servers in, or any application that must potentially deal with thousands of concurrent operations. For this, try something like C# or Go or Erlang! tldr; Love is unsuited for MMOs. -=-=- Afr0 Games Project Dollhouse on Github - Please fork!
Sat, 11 May 2013, 19:47
Cower	... Why would it ever matter that LOVE is unsuitable for MMOs in this context?
Sat, 11 May 2013, 20:08
steve_ancell	Like Dabz said; to keep a kid interested it needs to be fun, go with a Basic like language; especially one like PlayMyCode that she can take away and practice at home or anywhere at anytime.
Sun, 12 May 2013, 03:57
rockford	Whatever language you choose for a noob, results should be quick and fun. No learner wants to type in a thousand lines of code before seeing something happen. Ignore all fluff that doesn't make logical sense to someone that has never coded before (eg arrays, data statements etc.) - stick purely with commands that help to get something on screen and then build on that. eg. Start with something as simple as loading and displaying a sprite, then have it move under computer control, then under the control of the user. All of that can be done in around 10 lines or less in a BASIC style language. Once the user has learned the basics they can build on their experiences and/or move to any other language.
Sun, 12 May 2013, 04:17
Jayenkai	Indeed, and with PlayMyCode's inbuilt art doodle thing, and no need to faff about with files, it's a lot more "instant", especially when you see it all happening in the browser. The less fiddling about, the better. Focus on getting something happening, rather than needing to teach about installing 7,000 Microsoft updates before you can get Hello World on the screen!! -=-=- ''Load, Next List!''
Sun, 12 May 2013, 05:02
Afr0	Focus on getting something happening, rather than needing to teach about installing 7,000 Microsoft updates before you can get Hello World on the screen!! I disagree. Most coding won't happen in the browser (unless you stay with PlayMyCode...) - it is simply unrealistic. I also realized yesterday when being forced to use Eclipse that Visual Studio is the best IDE out there, free or not. Sure, its projects generate a lot of files, but this is fairly common and realistic. If you're ever going to create a project over a certain size, you'll need more files anyway. I feel like most of the advice so far seems to revolve around "present her with a fairytale world, don't show her what programming is really like!" In my opinion, that's doing her a disservice. Try to focus on being realistic. Love is a good choice. It requires you to install Lua and deal with files. If she doesn't like it, programming probably isn't for her. -=-=- Afr0 Games Project Dollhouse on Github - Please fork!
Sun, 12 May 2013, 05:05
Jayenkai	You need to have a passion. If your first experience is 100,000 installs, and a shitload of waiting, that's enough to put you right off it. I learned because there was a flashing yellow cursor, begging me to type stuff, and I had a lot of free time on my hands to figure out what type of things it liked! Kids don't get that, anymore. Instant gratification is what they need. -=-=- ''Load, Next List!''
Sun, 12 May 2013, 05:27
Afr0	Let's face it: Programming is an esoteric hobby at best, especially for girls. Most people are in it either because it is their profession, in which case they love it so much that it spills into their freetime - or because they grew up dreaming it would one day be their profession. I'm not saying all people, mind, but most. What conclusion can you draw from this? She'll need a passion to continue anyway. If she's an average girl, she'll be busing to London queing for clubs before you can say "what happened?!" And then there's no point. The trick is to find out if she does indeed have a passion. I'm not saying you shouldn't motivate her, by any means, but be realistic, and if she has the spark, she'll follow along anyway. -=-=- Afr0 Games Project Dollhouse on Github - Please fork!
Sun, 12 May 2013, 06:50
steve_ancell	Afr0 I disagree. Most coding won't happen in the browser (unless you stay with PlayMyCode...) - it is simply unrealistic. The important parts here are introducing a kid to programming and having a portable proggy-lingo that doesn't need to be installed and is free of charge. Once the concept of programming has been grasped, it will then pave the way to move onto other proggy-lingos.
Sun, 12 May 2013, 06:58
steve_ancell	Same thing above was true for me too, I started with Locomotive BASIC on the Amstrad and BBC BASIC at school, then 68000 ASM. I did ditch computers for a while from about 1994 to about Y2K and then discovered BlitzBasic in a PC-Format magazine, the turning point for me was the concept of UDTs and Functions, that was the very feature that paved the way for me to learn the concepts of classes, methods and objects; which paved the way for me to have a go at Java, C# and C++.
Sun, 12 May 2013, 08:46
9572AD	I disagree entirely, Afr0. Setting up a coding environment and learning to code are two entirely separate things. I still can't set up a coding environment for beans, but once I'm in one and know which widgets to jiggle, I can code without issue. -=-=- All the raw, animal magnetism of a rutabaga.
Sun, 12 May 2013, 08:47
Hotshot	ASSEMBLER is waste of time even thought their commands is small to make anythings out of it and yes, it can be fun if person know how to do it! Where do you want start? Try AGK or Mircosoft Small Basic GOOD Luck
Sun, 12 May 2013, 09:57
Afr0	I disagree entirely, Afr0. Setting up a coding environment and learning to code are two entirely separate things. I still can't set up a coding environment for beans, but once I'm in one and know which widgets to jiggle, I can code without issue. You don't have to setup an environment to work with Love as such. In fact, Lua comes with a capable editor for writing scripts. But you still have to install the Lua VM. Most programming doesn't happen in the browser, and unless you're hellbent on doing it in Notepad, you usually have to install something or other and possibly even configure it to your liking. That said, the best IDEs don't require much configuration at all, such as Visual Studio. But they still have to be installed! Hell, how to install shit on ones computer should be the first thing anyone learns, and if she can't even do that (or doesn't have the patience for it) - imagine how well she'll do beyond displaying a sprite on the screen!! On another note, I could mention that learning how to program without at least a basic knowledge of how to configure your selected environment (let alone installing it...) is like learning to ski without first learning how to tie your laces! -=-=- Afr0 Games Project Dollhouse on Github - Please fork!
Sun, 12 May 2013, 10:06
Cower	In fact, Lua comes with a capable editor for writing scripts. No, it doesn't. That said, all someone needs to use Lua is a text editor, and anything from ConTEXT to Sublime Text to whatever's simplest (not Notepad - that's a bad idea) for the person works. The entire point here is that it should easy to get into. LOVE accomplishes this by showing you a giant pink piggy with hearts swirling around it. That said, setting up an environment to work with anything is a terribly boring thing and not something the kid needs to know.
Sun, 12 May 2013, 10:08
Afr0	No, it doesn't. It does on windows. -=-=- Afr0 Games Project Dollhouse on Github - Please fork!
Sun, 12 May 2013, 10:29
spinal	This has turned out to be quit the talking point! It seems for now at least that the lessons wont be happening, I was going off the word of a friend about a different friend. I'll ask them about it next time I see them. Until then though, I agree with those of you who say setting up an environment is less important than the actual coding part for beginners. A lot of us started on machines where programming was the main focus of the machine itself, the old 8-bits for example. I really doubt I would have even though of coding at all if I wasn't presented with a 'READYâˆŽ' every time I powered up, begging my to type something. -=-=- Check out my excellent homepage!
Sun, 12 May 2013, 10:40
9572AD	On another note, I could mention that learning how to program without at least a basic knowledge of how to configure your selected environment (let alone installing it...) is like learning to ski without first learning how to tie your laces! For us old farts, that was the only way to learn. Your programming environment was your micro. There were no options. There was no installing. You didn't even think about it. You just learned how to code. Most likely you started with whatever flavour of BASIC was on your micro, then later learned a bit of assembly or at least some PEEKs and POKEs to finangle the firmware. The very idea of using another program to write a program in the limited RAM-space you had available was just silly. Sure, there was a version of Logo for most micros, but I never heard of anybody using it for anything more than a high-tech Spirograph. So, yes, it is entirely possible to learn to code without any faffing about with environmental installations and setups. -=-=- All the raw, animal magnetism of a rutabaga.
Sun, 12 May 2013, 11:27
Afr0	So, yes, it is entirely possible to learn to code without any faffing about with environmental installations and setups. As far as configuring your IDE to your liking, I agree that it isn't the most important thing to learn off the bat. But as far as installing an IDE - installing programs should (as I pointed out before) be one of the first things you learn to do on your computer. If you don't have the patience for it, you won't make it as a programmer. Period. Also, there's a reason people started using IDEs as computers got more powerful. Writing programs inside one file is not a good idea unless the program is < 1000 lines. And even if it is, putting classes and/or types into separate files is a good way to conceptualize your program, as well as structuring it. These days, programming should involve handling multiple files. If it doesn't, you're doing something wrong (or using PlayMyCode...) -=-=- Afr0 Games Project Dollhouse on Github - Please fork!
Sun, 12 May 2013, 11:56
Cower	It does on windows. That's not Lua, that's a third-party package. Lua is strictly Lua, not someone's third-party installer with a bunch of extra crap. I swear, you seem to leak misinformation at every opportunity.
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