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Socoder -> Off Topic -> Student Fes in Britain

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Fri, 10 Dec 2010, 15:33
dna

How about that.

The fees are to be increased and the students protest. Perfectly normal a protest but did they have to attack HRH The Prince of England?

HRH Prince Charles has no control over the matter although he might be able to exude some control over the matter.

Should the students have attacked the car?

I had hoped he would be King before his son.

-=-=-
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Fri, 10 Dec 2010, 17:01
rockford
Perfectly normal a protest but did they have to attack HRH The Prince of England?

I had hoped he would be King before his son.

Charles is not the Prince of England - he's the Prince Of Wales - and is still likely to become king before his son.

Whilst the students have legitimate reasons to protest, there are far more effective methods of conveying a message than trashing property and scaring the crap out of anyone that happens to be in the protestors' path - whether they happen to be royalty or not.

It just goes to show the level of anger though at the choices made by an un-elected government (Britain did NOT vote for a coilition party).

TBH these protests are thankfully nothing compared to those in other countries recently - like France, for instance, over their government's policies.
Fri, 10 Dec 2010, 17:35
curtastic
Why does the central government have any say in what universities charge? Why don't the universities decide themselves?
Fri, 10 Dec 2010, 17:56
dna
They might be funded by the government. Here in America the Government funds the schools and so the schools themselves have no say over how they are run and how much they charge.

We do have some independent schools. Those are already pricey.


-=-=-
DNA
Fri, 10 Dec 2010, 19:00
Spare
There's a difference between protesting and brainless actions. Today we've been protesting in my country about the same issue and nobody was hurt. That's good.

I don't care if he was your prince or not, attacking anyone is bad i.m.o.
Fri, 10 Dec 2010, 22:22
Stealth
Here in America the Government funds the schools and so the schools themselves have no say over how they are run and how much they charge.


This really isn't true. The US government simply provides loan to students. Universities can charge whatever they like as long as they are accredited.


The new tuition rates don't seem that bad in my view. Here in America, tuition rates are much much more expensive than 9,000 GBP. I'm actually really surprised with how cheap University is there. My guess is that 3,000 GBP is running Universities in the red and they need to raise rates. Although, I haven't really studied this topic.

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Sat, 11 Dec 2010, 03:20
Afr0
Universities can charge whatever they like as long as they are accredited.


The new tuition rates don't seem that bad in my view. Here in America, tuition rates are much much more expensive than 9,000 GBP. I'm actually really surprised with how cheap University is there. My guess is that 3,000 GBP is running Universities in the red and they need to raise rates. Although, I haven't really studied this topic.


Of course they're more expensive in America, because universities are run as frickin businesses!
What the hell did you expect?
In Norway most Universities are at least partially funded by the government, so tuition fees rarely run above 1000 NOK (around 100 GBP) per year.

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Sat, 11 Dec 2010, 04:01
shroom_monk
The UK Government does not set what Universities can charge. It simply makes the law of how much they are allowed to charge. What the Coalition want to do is make Unis be able to charge up to £6000, or, if they can show they are providing grants/help/etc to those from disadvantaged backgrounds, up to £9000.

Unis are under no obligation to raise their fees, however since their funding is being cut, most probably will.

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Sat, 11 Dec 2010, 07:20
Afr0
or, if they can show they are providing grants/help/etc to those from disadvantaged backgrounds, up to £9000


Thank goodness!

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Sat, 11 Dec 2010, 07:44
Scherererer
Okay allow me to clarify how American universities get funded:

There are two types, Private and Public institutions:

Private institutions do not receive any money from the state they reside in. Public institutions do receive money from the state, and are subsidized by the state. Again, state, not nation; neither are directly backed by the federal government. Because of this, I cannot speak on behalf of all states, only the one I reside in, because state laws will differ.

In the state of Florida (my residence, and the location of the school I attend), the state provides money to the school, and the state legislature regulates a base tuition that each state (public) university can charge. There is no regulation on private institutions. However, this does not account for additional fees, which are up to the institution itself. A popular fee is called an "equipment fee" which doesn't necessarily fund any equipment.

In the state of Florida, there is a scholarship provided ("Bright Futures Scholarship") for students who did well in highschool and continue to do well in college, granting them 100% or 75% of their tuition, depending on performance. Many states have similar programs (such as the "Georgia Hope Scholarship").

Now, the state does not completely fund the university. There are some state universities in other states where the state only funds less than 10% of the universities' overall spending.

The university I attend, University of Central Florida, has an operating budget of $1,263,439,274. As you can probably guess, only a fraction of that comes from tuition. The rest comes from companies, grants, donations, sponsorships, and university investments. Granted, we're the second largest university in the US, but you get the idea of how it works on the high end.

www.fa.ucf.edu/Budget_Operations/Publications/Operating_Budget_Summary_by_FY.xlsx

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Sat, 11 Dec 2010, 10:36
JL235
We get the impression here in the UK that in the US (and in a lot of other foreign countries) there is a lot of love and admiration for our royal family. Here is the UK it typically falls into one of two categories: you either don't mind them or you hate them. In my opinion the hate side is growing.

It mainly comes down to the fact that they live a life of luxury, partly funded by the UK government, solely as a result of being born into the Royal Family.

rockford It just goes to show the level of anger though at the choices made by an un-elected government (Britain did NOT vote for a coilition party).
Yes we did. We failed to elect a majority party to govern. The options left would be a coalition government or a minority government. Plus it was entirely obvious during the election that failing to elect a majority government would have lead to a coalition party.

I hadn't realised the fees were only being raised to £6,000 unless you could prove you were doing more to help students. However I am quite sceptical about what this proof requires. I can imagine it excludes anyone from a middle or middle-lower background, which is a place that's more worse off then you think.

This makes me feel even more that the government should have scrapped the £9,000 mark. Having been through university (and now carry the debt of it) I think £6,000 a year is still pretty cheap (especially coupled with the excellent terms we receive from the Students Loans company). It's the £9,000 figure that makes it look so scary and that's what you hear about in the news.
Sat, 11 Dec 2010, 10:59
Stealth
JL235 We get the impression here in the UK that in the US (and in a lot of other foreign countries) there is a lot of love and admiration for our royal family.


I can assure you that most Americans don't even know how your government is structured.

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Sat, 11 Dec 2010, 11:50
JL235
Stealth I can assure you that most Americans don't even know how your government is structured.

I don't quite get this. I meant love and admiration for the royals themselves, not our governmental structure.
Sat, 11 Dec 2010, 14:08
HoboBen
Should the students have attacked the car?


I find it laughable (and depressing) that the newspapers are focusing on this when there were police horses charging no-holds-barred into a crowd containing school children as young as thirteen. Several police also pulled a disabled student out of a wheelchair (twice) and dragged him along the ground.

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Sat, 11 Dec 2010, 14:56
Mog
Stealth I can assure you that most Americans don't even know how your government is structured.


I don't quite get this. I meant love and admiration for the royals themselves, not our governmental structure.


Point proven.

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Sat, 11 Dec 2010, 19:15
Stealth
I don't quite get this. I meant love and admiration for the royals themselves, not our governmental structure.


I mean that they probably don't even realize you have a royal family.

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Mon, 13 Dec 2010, 03:03
waroffice
i dont get why people dont like the royal family or how its run THEY OWN THE COUNTRY IF YOU DONT LIKE IT BUGGER OFF SOMEWHERE ELSE!

As for the fees, there is a need to cut down on the number of people getting degrees, there is no point in flooding the jobs market full of of folk with a higher education as it renders it useless (not completely useless obviously but it doesnt make you stand out anymore). The way to do is quickly and keep the economy going at the same time is make it possible to charge more for the term. I don't think the students read the whole story though, from what i can gather the threshold for repayment is a lot higher and you get to pay very little back if you can't afford it.

If they didnt blow their loans on booze, Glastonbury tickets and stupid haircuts they would not need to borrow so much.
Mon, 13 Dec 2010, 06:21
JL235
waroffice As for the fees, there is a need to cut down on the number of people getting degrees, there is no point in flooding the jobs market full of of folk with a higher education as it renders it useless (not completely useless obviously but it doesnt make you stand out anymore). The way to do is quickly and keep the economy going at the same time is make it possible to charge more for the term.

I disagree. I think encouraging people to be less intelligent and successful is a bad idea.

waroffice If they didnt blow their loans on booze, Glastonbury tickets and stupid haircuts they would not need to borrow so much.

Based on this I would predict that you have not been to university.
Mon, 13 Dec 2010, 07:42
waroffice
so what you are saying is that I'm less intelligent because i never went to university? it is true I haven't been to uni but my girlfriend has been twice, my friends have been all i hear about is their nights on the town, turning up to lectures direct from the pub the night before and going to exams jumped up on speed. Intelligence has nothing to do with study, intelligence is your ability to use your brain and work out problems, not how you can remember facts and tick boxes on an exam.

I'm no less successful than any of my colleagues who have been to university, and more so than my friends who have (not counting the doctor!). What use does a sociology degree do you when you work in topshop selling jeans to other students? or as one of my school friends does, works in tescos since he left uni 10 years ago.

I agree the students are having to pay more for something the MPs creating the proposals got for free the fact LibDems said they wouldnt raise it if they won the election, which they didn't so whats the problem and we did elect a coalition government when there was no majority vote.

/rant

no back to more important matters like the xmas game compo
Mon, 13 Dec 2010, 08:13
HoboBen
Lets be clear on one thing: the fees and the coming cuts are nothing to do with the economy. What would really help is nationalisation and massive public investment to create jobs. Massive unemployment and shrinking wages are only going to push us back into recession. Even The Financial Times and The Economist, newspapers for the capitalist class, fearing collapse, realise this.

The public sector cuts are purely ideological and the economy is purely an excuse; the Torys don't believe in a public sector.

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Mon, 13 Dec 2010, 08:19
JL235
Your original point was that it would be good to raise fees to discourage people from going to university in order to make degrees look more attractive.

I disagree because I don't think making them exclusive is not a justified reason to prevent people from receiving higher education. On average, those with degrees are more successful in their careers and earn more money over their lifetime. So yes, you are more likely to be more successful if you went to university.

However of course my post was not a personal attack on you.

waroffice my friends have been all i hear about is their nights on the town, turning up to lectures direct from the pub the night before and going to exams jumped up on speed.

Going out in the evening is no more common for those I know at uni then for those I know who aren't at uni. Your other claims reflect a tiny minority of students. I personally have seen people do that kind of stuff, like pulling all nighters cramming before an exam and going to lectures wasted. They typically don't do anywhere near as well as the rest of the student body.

waroffice Intelligence has nothing to do with study, intelligence is your ability to use your brain and work out problems, not how you can remember facts and tick boxes on an exam

I entirely agree but that does not reflect how I sat my exams or completed assignments. I graduated with the highest mark in my year.
Mon, 13 Dec 2010, 13:23
Scherererer
Stealth
I don't quite get this. I meant love and admiration for the royals themselves, not our governmental structure.


I mean that they probably don't even realize you have a royal family.


I mean, people know y'all have them, but I don't think most people understand their connection to everything. I don't think most people really care about the monarch; its more for the butt end of a lot of jokes.

I'm sure a lot of countries still like the royal family, like Canada for instance, who still has the queen on their currency; but so much of American culture is about the idea that you can earn power and wealth after being raised in any condition rather than being born with it ("American Dream"). We don't hate, its just that we don't care much for them I think, in general.

----

Frankly, I don't think as many people should be getting college degrees as they are. There are plenty of professions which don't require a 4-year degree, which are just fine. I support trade schools and apprenticeships fully for a lot of jobs, and I feel like they are more practical for the majority of people.

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Mon, 13 Dec 2010, 20:35
dna
"I'm sure a lot of countries still like the royal family, like Canada for instance, who still has the queen on their currency; but so much of American culture is about the idea that you can earn power and wealth after being raised in any condition rather than being born with it ("American Dream"). We don't hate, its just that we don't care much for them I think, in general."

What I heard in college is that some do not appreciate that they do not work. I do not see whats wrong with that but it made me think that the monarchy is envied for not having to suffer for the things that some of us must.

That's how some people are here in LA and it's the problem in Britain in some places. They need to keep their food taste testers. We need them here in America at starbucks and other restaurants.

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DNA
Tue, 14 Dec 2010, 01:16
Afr0
Frankly, I don't think as many people should be getting college degrees as they are. There are plenty of professions which don't require a 4-year degree, which are just fine. I support trade schools and apprenticeships fully for a lot of jobs, and I feel like they are more practical for the majority of people.


This is bullshit.
I agree, there's no need for everyone to have college degrees. Don't force the ones who don't want college degrees to take it.
But actively stopping people from getting college degrees creates class differences.

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Tue, 14 Dec 2010, 04:28
JL235
I don't think Scherererer was saying we should stop people from getting degrees, just that there are lots of alternatives. That a degree is not the only path people can follow after school.
Tue, 14 Dec 2010, 04:39
Afr0
Yes, this is obviously true.
As a socialist and communist, people might think I would be in favour of people working for the state (in whatever job they're picked for).
But I instinctively wrinkle my nose at anything that smells of class differences.

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